Who says that they don’t teach line of dance.
Here is a post I came across from Sydney tango forum:
During the Milonga III class of the STS festival on Sunday, Javier Rodriguez, being obviously critical of Sydney (or maybe Australian) general floor craft & salon tango etiquette gave all present a serious dressing down, illustrated with his typically humorous impersonations. The gist of his message is as follows: On the dance floor, men (leaders) are actually all dancing together, even if they are at a distance from each other. They look out for each other, each man keeping his eye essentially only on the man in front of him so as to maintain that intervening space. They are a sort of team. In between the men, naturally, are the women/dance partners. Now a man is never permitted to touch another man, because in so doing, he gives the other the right to ‘touch’ him back, with maybe disastrous consequences. However, as we have evolved somewhat, knives and firearms are luckily no longer common on the dance floor. It is simply the rule: You do not touch another man/couple. Accidents/mistakes can happen. Never say sorry! Laugh at what has happened and make sure you do not repeat it. However, there is something which one must take on to the dance floor which can prevent such occurrences, and that is attitude. One must never be apologetic or explain it was your fault, as this mindset attracts just these encounters. If one enters the dance floor with assurance and poise, you will not collide or attract collisions. Part of this attitude is one’s confident stance and correct embrace. It acts as an energy field and as a protective defence mechanism, the man’s well-placed elbows also providing a strong physical barrier and deterrent. When the man (leader) is looking forward, it is his partner’s duty to watch what is happening behind them. She must have her head positioned so that she can see either side of the man’s. If the man is directing them backwards in such a way that they might collide with the couple behind, she should signal her partner with pressure of her hand on his back. If, however, they are stationary and the couple behind is advancing in such a way that a collision is likely, the women has the right to extend her hand to the rear to physically stop them making bodily contact. Couples must follow the line of dance around the outside of the floor. It is not permitted to overtake another couple on the inside. It happens now and again that one couple is slow or having problems with the dance and can hold up the line of dancers behind them. It is the responsibility of the leader of the slow couple to be sensitive to the situation and enter into the centre of the dance floor, thus providing a gap in the line of dance. The couple behind is now permitted to overtake the previous couple by continuing on the outside line of dance. However, it can happen that the slow couple’s leader is insensitive to the situation and does not make way for those behind. What is the leader of the couple behind to do, as he cannot touch him or tell him vocally to move out of the way? Javier’s suggestion is for him to click his fingers – rather like using your car horn in traffic! ——————————————————————————————- Hopefully these suggestions of Señor Rodriguez will have a positive effect on our floorcraft and make for a more pleasant atmosphere at our milongas where we find all too many couples, both advanced and inexperienced, being misdirected in all directions, and provoking contact and collisions that we could well do without.
As I always say, before you people criticize Javier and Andrea, take a lesson or two from them.
I agree with you and when Javier says about the line of dance: “However, there is something which one must take on to the dance floor which can prevent such occurrences, and that is attitude. One must never be apologetic or explain it was your fault, as this mindset attracts just these encounters. If one enters the dance floor with assurance and poise, you will not collide or attract collisions. Part of this attitude is one’s confident stance and correct embrace. It acts as an energy field and as a protective defence mechanism, the man’s well-placed elbows also providing a strong physical barrier and deterrent. ”
True. However, you are assuming that all the men on the dance floor are aware of their surroundings and not oblivious to everyone else on the dance floor. In many tango communities in the USA, some men are doing their exhibition(s) and don’t seem to give a sh*t about anyone else or who they crash into or “touch”. I wish Javier could go around and speak to each community here in the US. I have given an oblivious dancer an elbow to protect my partner, but they dont seem to get the message and continue crashing into other couples all night. And the better followers still accept dances with these bad leaders, so that doesn’t help at all,because then they are not motivated to improve their navigation skills and if the men are trying to send the oblivious dancer a message!!! Frustrating for those that are looking out for the other couples and trying to get a nice flow on the dance floor…
..a comment from someone else on this same post..
Interesting! I was told the opposite – that when overtaking is absolutely necessary [for reasons already given], you should overtake on the inside but never on the outside. The reason given was that, due to the embrace,
the man is blind on his right side and to overtake a man where he cannot see you increases the risk of a collision. This makes sense to me. I was also told that one reason why milongueros always dance in the outer ronda is because of this ‘blindness’ on their right side, i.e. they know that there
are no dancers there to disturb him or his partner.
One time in Buenos Aires, I was watching El Flaco Dany in a milonga
when another couple came up close behind him and appeared to be
about to pass him on the outside. I didn’t see any collision but Dany stopped dancing and started to berate the other man.
Jack D.
El Flaco Danny behaves as if he is the king in the milongas, from my observation.Cutting him from any side would be a crime that deserves beheading. Attitude!!! :p
If the guy in front of you isn’t aware that he is stopping the traffic, there is a good chance that he is blind, clueless and in his own world, and often behaves unpredictably. Overtaking him would be a dangerous from any side. But Jack D. misses the point of that post. If someone starts arguing about if one should pass inside or outside, one is missing the point of this post as well.
They are so amazing! Not only for the dancing, but for their teaching which necessarily includes the cultural aspects and the etiquette of the milonga. For the few years they have been teaching in our community, they have had an incredibly positive influence… Viva Javier y Andrea!
@TP: quite right in your comment about passing on either side! My experience is that the relatively inexperienced leaders, understandably, are slower slowly but tend to be predictable. On the other hand, it’s the category of intermediate dancers who are more menacing, either consuming inappropriate amount of space with figures, or lack patience and want to overtake at the first opportunity.
Not having been in the class myself, I am a little puzzled by the phrase “never say sorry” that Javier supposedly said to the class. I can accept it if it simply means not stopping in the middle of the dance to apologise. However, this statement seems to mean more than that!? TP, since you obviously have taken a few classes with Javier, can you hazard a guess as to what he might have meant? Thanks.
@Luise,
Well, I wasn’t there so I couldn’t speculate the meaning behind his words.
Although it may sound like a digression: in America, whenever one gets into an auto accident, one shall never admit being at fault voluntarily. Otherwise, it would open the floodgates and invite all sorts of troubles, lawsuits.
I was in a car accident on my way to a milonga a few months ago, my car was rear-ended at a traffic light. We pulled over to the side. The other driver called his insurance company, I got a claim number which covered all the expense of my repair. Then we drove off. Before he hopped in his jeep, he said to me ” have a better night, man”. That was it. No sorry, no apology even he was 100% at fault.
If an Asian and an American bump each other on the street, the Asian would most likely say Sorry, as the American would just say Excuse Me. That is just different mentality.
All I have to go on is 12 years dancing in the milongas of Buenos Aires. I have never seen Javier dancing at a milonga with anyone, so I don’t know where he got his information about how things are done. He usually has the floor to himself for an exhibition with his partner.
On the dance floor, everyone is dancing together, not only the men. We are all in it together, so we have to be respectful. Women who close their eyes while dancing aren’t helping the situation.
Touching or brushing another dancer on the floor happens, but it doesn’t cause arguments or fights. I’ve never seen a milonguero actually laugh about it, probably because they never touch anyone. Perdon or a hand signal acknowledging the collision is sufficient.
It is the woman’s job to be aware of those behind the man and to his right by keeping her eyes open and looking over his shoulder. I’ve never noticed Geraldin or Andrea dancing this way with Javier. I don’t know how it’s possible for a woman to watch on both sides of the man at the same time.
He doesn’t mention that the floor can have two or three lanes of dancing, so everyone can’t be on the outside lane.
I have partnered men who change our location on the floor between dances in order to avoid the slower dancers ahead who are inexperienced or those who are always bumping into other dancers. This is done in the milongas of BsAs. Nothing needs to be said to the couple–simply walk around them and begin dancing when traffic moves.
These comments are not meant as criticism of Javier, but only as my take on how things are being done in the milongas where I dance with milongueros.
Are you kidding me?In three years, less than a month each time, I’ve witnessed milongueros blind as a bat bumping dancers around the floor. I saw milongueros arguing, almost throwing fist at the dance floor at Nino Bien, Sunderland, El Beso… which you probably would say that they are now touristy milongas. I had an old dude back his partner into me at El Beso and had the guts to pull my hands down. He backed down after I stared at him, and the portena I was dancing with call him a loco when we moved on. And you have been there 12 years and seen none? Maybe you are just selectively watching.
Where Javi got his tango info? His father is a milonguero! He grew up dancing in the milongas, like Geraldine, before you did! You have never seen Javier dancing in the milonga? I danced right behind him and Andrea at Porteno y Bailarin at my first trip before I went to have my first private with them.
And try to walk around a couple in the milongas such as El Beso, Maipu 444, Nino Bien… or these are not the your so called authentic milongas. You only dance in milongas that have room to go around a couple?
And Jantango, there are a lot of situations that you have not experienced but don’t mean that others haven’t. You opinions about tango are partial. Your opinions about anything related to tango are just milongueros this, milongueros that in a superficial way. You have no idea of what tango experience is. You have no clue about what roles man and woman share in the dance, or what responsibilities, how to communicate…
And you’re so negative. It takes a lot of effort to eradicate your negative energies. Do you even know how to enjoy tango? You know, close your eyes, relax, listen and breathe. Or maybe take a few lessons, expand your horizon, understand a bit more, open your eyes, absorb some good energy and spread some good vibe? That might do every one some good!
TP wrote: “Where Javi got his tango info? His father is a milonguero! He grew up dancing in the milongas, like Geraldine, before you did! You have never seen Javier dancing in the milonga? I danced right behind him and Andrea at Porteno y Bailarin at my first trip”
I love Javier & Geraldine but I don’t think they “grew up dancing in the milongas”. There are videos of Geraldine on YouTube at age 12 already performing and I read that Javier learned his tango as a teenager at Buenos Aires Theatre Academy. Most of what Javier says doesn’t make him sound like like a social dancer in the milongas.
Over the past 10 years or so, I’ve spent a total of 18 months in BsAs, dancing in the milongas every night and, while I see all the milongueros on a regular basis, I’ve never seen Javier or Geraldine. Maybe TP got lucky.
And, from what TP writes here and what Jantango writes [here and elsewhere] I’d say Jantango knows a lot more than TP about dancing in the milongas of BsAs.
@Jack D
The last 10 years? They have been touring most of the time last ten years. Since you have spent more than 18 months in BsAs, you know that there are at least ten milongas going on any given night, you dance at each one of them? Did I get lucky? No I was just at the right places at the right time. I have seen a lot of names dancing in the milonga (and I have video to prove it, on my youtube channel, and at some of my posts), only three trips down south. Mr.D, you probably should open your eyes more.
Like everywhere else, you always see regular faces in the milongas. That doesn’t mean they all dance well. Hanging out in the milonga, dancing regularly or traveling to various festivals don’t necessarily make one a good dancer. Ten years of dancing regularly in the milongas only makes one somewhat decent. A few milongueras thought that I had been dancing over ten years after dancing with me. They were all shocked when I told them I had just danced two years at that time. So there, years on the floor doesn’t really carry much weight on one’s dancing level. On the contrary, the longer that one dances, the harder to get rid of certain bad habits. If one starts as a lousy dancer with many bad habits and never seeks to improve, one only gets worse over the years. Agreed?
“Most of what Javier says doesn’t make him sound like a social dancer in the milongas”
Well, your average social dancer, even in the milongas in Buenos Aires, is lousy dancer. As a matter of fact, most of the social dancers are just average dancers. If Javier sounds like, or teach like an average social dancer, what is the point for me, or many others to travel thousands of miles to study with him and blog about him.
One known teachers/organizer, who has been dancing and teaching for over fifteen years, from Italy said to me, after danced with me a couple of years ago, in the milonga “Most of Javi’s students are good dancers. I enjoy dancing with his students.”
Now, THAT is the magic of a great teacher, that very few have.
TD,
“Did I get lucky? No I was just at the right places at the right time.” Funny; I thought that meant the same thing.
“only three trips down south. Mr.D …” I never said that; read again. And please don’t assume I’m from the USA.
“A few milongueras thought that I had been dancing over ten years after dancing with me. They were all shocked when I told them I had just danced two years …” Funny again; I like to say the same thing to beginners; it makes them happy and just displays your gullibility by believing them.
“As a matter of fact, most of the social dancers are just average dancers.” You’re obviously an elitist and don’t understand the first thing about Tango in Buenos Aires. I’m certain you just LOVE show-off dancers and I’m equally sure that you’re one of them.
“If Javier sounds like, or teach like an average social dancer, what is the point for me, or many others to travel thousands of miles to study with him …” Well, you’re the one who made the statement that Javier “grew up dancing in the milongas …”
“Most of Javi’s students are good dancers.” Finally we agree on something.
As I’ve already said, I love Javier – but while his father might have been a milonguero [I don't know], just don’t make the mistake of thinking that Javier is a milonguero or that he “grew up dancing in the milongas”. He’s a professional, which is a completely different thing to social dancing in Buenos Aires or anywhere else. Most people just want to be good social dancers, not performers.
This is what I wrote: “I have seen a lot of names dancing in the milonga (and I have video to prove it, on my youtube channel, and at some of my posts), only three trips down south.” So I did not assume where you were from, although I had a rough idea of where you were writing from.
I always take compliments with a grain of salt. Yet I know how exceptionally well I dance. And I don’t have to list all the well known names that have praised my dance, in the milongas.
“I’m certain you just LOVE show-off dancers and I’m equally sure that you’re one of them.” And please don’t assume you know me. I am not the ones who post their photos and videos with milongueros all over the web.
“you’re the one who made the statement that Javier…” See El Tangauta issue 184 interview:
I am sure you could read the rest of the interview if you are interested in…
Now I am sure I don’t have to rebut your last statement.
” I always take compliments with a grain of salt. Yet I know how exceptionally well I dance. And I don’t have to list all the well known names that have praised my dance, in the milongas.”… whouaouhh!!!!
I wish I could see that…